Ep 309 – Unrighteous Dominion defeated by Kick(butt) Michelle


Posted October 2nd, 2016

Want to hear the real reason Mormon leaders don’t want women to hold the priesthood?

In a follow-up interview to last week’s “Unrighteous Dominion” episode, Michelle and Adam join Glenn, Jake, and Matt to explain why they secretly recorded the bishop who likes swimming’ suits, and they share another secretly recorded discussion with the bishop, where Michelle valiantly stands up to the Patriarchy.  And wins.  Vicarious uppercut.




  • I was so happy to hear that Michelle and Adam and young Mahonri came out the other side of their scrape with the so-called Church more-or-less undamaged and only the wiser for the experience. I think this new audio and their interactions with y’all, however, reveal them to not have been quite the browbeaten downtrodden, if mildly rebellious, thralls that I took them for following the original Unrighteous Dominion episode. It seems they’d been a pea under the so-called Church’s mattress off and on for some time, hence Adam’s relegation to the library, etc. Well, if they were ever downtrodden, they’re not anymore and that makes for a great story. Live long and prosper, all of you!

    P.S. Am I missing something with this Game of Thrones deal? I saw a part of one episode in which they were performing very realistic-looking beheadings and such. This was back when ISL was first overrunning Iraq and I thought to myself, “I can see this on Fox ‘News’ for free,” and I never tuned in again. Is it hideously erotic as well as horribly violent?

    • Ryan Gregson

      Yes. It’s the best.

  • Conversus

    The truth claims of the Church aside–because I am uniquely unqualified to speak to that issue, If that bishop was really
    concerned about the ability or preparedness of parents to address these
    significant issues in the lives of their children, perhaps he could have
    crafted a series of pre-baptism seminars, where parents were exposed to
    a very short schema of questions and given some guidance about how to
    prepare their children to respond to those questions. Catholics have,
    of course, been doing this sort of thing quite successfully for

  • Errant

    I wanted to reach into my smartphone and punch that assist bishop in the face. It stopped being about the chastity question and was clearly all about him winning. This demonstrates the fallibility of good intentions. He believed he was doing good, but lacked perspective and introspection. I will not permit bishops to interview my daughter’s without me present. (I wish I could just have no interviews, but I am trapped by a zealous and unhappy believing wife).

  • Lost in Canada

    Boy was it satisfying to listen to Michelle stand up to that clown of a bishop. Kudos to both Adam and Michelle.

  • Orrin Dayne

    You know you’ve listened to a lot of Infants on Thrones when you think about Glenn’s “make an ass out of you and me” friend from high school before Glenn brings it up. When I listened to the first recording, I thought of Glenn’s friend and wondered what their goal was given they knew they were being recorded. In this episode, Adam explained that, essentially, he wanted the Bishop to hang himself with his own rope and that he didn’t want to come off like a jerk when sharing the tape with his family members, though he ended up not having to share it. That explanation makes sense to me. Thanks for inviting Michelle and Adam to join you. I enjoyed this.

    • Glenn

      But did you know that his name was Todd and that he used to practice walking on his hands while he was drunk so thst if he was ever accused of underage drinking he could say, “Oh yeah? Could I walk on my hands like this if I had been drinking?” I don’t remember if I ever shared that part before or not.

      So what am I thinking right now, Orrin?

      • Orrin Dayne

        Yes, I knew all that too. And you should be ashamed of what you’re thinking right now.

  • Moroni’s Cousin

    He sure does bring up the example of paying tithing a lot as a question. Seems weird that that is his go-to. Gotta get those 8 year olds paying their dues early. That bishop is a douche.

  • Jason Anderson

    I’m curious, did this bishop ever mention anything about how they got access to the special instructions in the super-secret bishop playbook?

    I know they mentioned in the ‘sode that they got it from a brother in a bishopric, but did he ever say that they shouldn’t have has access to that info?

  • Jonathan Stiles

    This bishop clearly was on a power trip and doesn’t seem to represent most LDS bishops, but his actions have plenty of justification from the church. The system gives so much power to leaders in authority with few options for recourse if there is a disagreement.

  • Tim

    What’s the best way to capture audio discreetly? I don’t have any aspirations for it, but I’m curious. Anyone?

    • You can get an app for your phone. Late in the episode they say they gave Mahonri the phone to record his closed-door interview, but the phone rang in the middle of it. Get an app where you can turn the ringer off while you’re recording. I record stuff then email the .mp3 files to myself at home. It’s like “videotaping” police shooting black people at traffic stops, only just audio so it doesn’t take as much memory.

  • Ron Hill

    I love you guys – you are so on the right path here. Laughter and fun with the ins and outs of our lives with good friends is the greatest form of therapy. Thanks for doing what you do … soon there will be 100s 😉

  • HighertoKolob

    I think this kind of power trip is fairly common, but I’ve had amazingly kind bishops as well. Shout out to Jake’s 20% of power hungry bishops – I’d counter with a higher made-up statistic. I think the power hunger has to do with location solely based on my experiences. Power hunger seems to be related to being in very conservative states (Utah, Idaho, Iowa).

    I had a bishop that sounded a lot like this guy circa 2006-9. We’ll call him Bishop Trip. Bishop Trip called me to Primary president and I was instructed to prayerfully consider this list of specific names for my counselors. When I called him to let him know who I chose (the only ones on the list that attended regularly), he told me I would have to wait because one of the women I chose had a husband out of town and the bishop stated he needed to ask the husband’s permission before moving forward. I asked him to repeat himself and asked where he got the idea after he repeated “permission”. Bishop Trip set up an appointment with me and got the Bishop’s handbook out and pointed to where he thought the instructions were to ask permission of a husband. That handbook said it’s advisable to consult with the spouse of the person extended a calling. Totally understandable. I told him that I I think both members of a partnership should have input in whether or not to accept a time consuming calling, but nowhere was “ask permission” written. He then started calling my temple recommend into question. He stated I didn’t support him as my priesthood leader and he should just take it from me then and there for insubordination. I met with the Stake President after being threatened by Bishop Trip. SP was one of the good ones, super sweet and went to bat for me (and his daughter, the person whose husband was out of town). I ended up serving in the primary presidency miserably with SP’s support and to the detriment of Bishop Trip. He was a serious trip of a human being.

    It’s unfortunate that so many instructions from LDSInc are unclear and open to misogynistic and bigoted interpretations depending entirely upon the opinions and persuasions any man given the “mantle” for the ward or stake.

  • jeanbodie

    I’m so glad to hear ‘the rest of the story’. There are way too many bishops on power trips. I’m going to share two examples from many in my own experience. Michelle, you remind me of me.
    My sister and her husband joined the church many years ago after I sent the missionaries to them – I know . After a year it was time for them to take their little one to the temple to be sealed to each other and him.
    Their Branch President told them they could NOT come to N. America to be sealed and that they MUST be sealed in the temple to which their branch belonged. I told him that was complete nonsense; my husband was a bishop at the time so my ‘morming’ knowledge was pretty good and I had access to the information in the bishops’ handbook via my husband.
    Due to BYU attendance, many Canadian LDS marry someone from the US so the bishop cannot possibly choose which temple they should rightfully marry in – the temples in Canada or the US of which there are way too many.
    My sister’s BP was livid that I was challenging him. Foaming at the mouth he sputtered, “Well none of their branch members will be able to attend.” “No, but their family members will and ultimately, you must admit that is more important. I have waited for years for this to happen.”
    They were sealed in the Salt Lake Temple with us present – take that self righteous asshole.
    Fast forward to 2005, after our disaster filled mission to South Africa. I’m feeling like we did very little that was actually helpful to the people in the townships who suffer from all kinds of privation. I worried about them, wishing I could have been more effective at providing long term temporal relief. I felt that the Lord was calling me to go back to our last area to give help which ended up as micro credit.
    When I shared this feeling with the bishop he said, “Sister Bodie, if the Lord had a calling like this for you it would come down through the ‘proper’ channels of the priesthood.” I responded by quoting scripture – ‘slothful servant’ etc. Since then, I have discovered that those ‘feelings’ were my own desire to do good – none of those feelings diminished without the ‘proper priesthood channels.
    Great job Michelle and Adam – this kind of ecclesiastical abuse needs to be exposed and you did it.

  • Suzanne

    Great episode! I grew up in North Ogden, and I am pretty sure that this guy was my bishop. The curiosity is killing me!

  • Ice Profet

    Thank you bishop for insisting that you know better than parents what questions their kids are prepared for. Your ‘mantle’ in this case has been exposed for the BS it is. Your insistence to make others feel your power has now driven far more people away from the church than you can imagine.

    Just think on judgment day about all those people that listened to you enforcing your unrighteous dominion on two loving and kind parents driving them and all who listen to this exchange away from the church. That is on YOUR head now 😉

  • Voltaire

    It is not just LGBTQ people and their children who learn self loathing and suffer damage as a result of church policies. The reason that most pedophiles get away with abuse for years and often are not caught until they have abused multiple victims, is because the overwhelming percentage of sexually abused children never tell anyone what happened to them, and the reason they do not tell is because the children feel guilty and ashamed as if it were their own fault, and the reason that they feel this way is because they sense the taboos, the cultural and religious norms, of their community.

    The church’s constant harping on masturbation, pornography, sex outside marriage, and homosexuality, its obsession with trying to control EVERYONE’S sexual behavior, only serves to give sex more power and mystique, only results in more harm than good, only creates more guilt ridden maladjusted adults, and all this without changing human sexual behavior one iota. I find it ironic that religious leaders who believe God created woman and man, and commanded them to multiply and replenish the earth, also believe that they can preach away this powerful sex drive which insures the survival of the species.

    Discussions about sex with minor children need to be simple, matter-of-fact, and devoid of emotional and religious baggage. Blame, guilt, and shame should never be attached to the innocent curiosity and experimentation of young children. A religious leader who is not also a professionally educated and trained child psychologist and an expert on human sexual development should not be meddling in this. How inappropriate it is for a religious authority figure who is practically a stranger to a child to tell him that he must not allow anyone to touch his private parts. Unknowingly this leader is signaling that it is the child’s responsibility to stop abuse, and therefore, his fault, if abuse happens to him. In reality, children, even into their teens, do not have the discernment to resist grooming, nor the power to resist any intimidation applied by a bigger older child or an adult determined to abuse him.

    All that a young child needs to know is that no one has the right to invade his private space, whether it is Aunty June trying to grab and kiss him, Grandpa insisting he sit on his lap, or a trusted family friend who gets him alone and does something inappropriate. A child needs to know that he is the boss of his own body, that he can say no if someone makes him feel uncomfortable, unsafe, or fearful, and that if this happens to him, he should tell and keep telling about it until he finds someone who will listen and come to his aid to protect him from further abuse.

    When a child has already been abused, the foremost things he needs to know is that it is not his fault, and that he will be believed and not blamed for it if he tells. As for telling a child that he should never touch himself, it is natural and normal for a child to be curious about his own body and explore it, and this should not be demonized. The way the church attaches so much guilt to normal human behavior, especially masturbation, is unnecessary overkill.

    Has the church set such a high and unrealistic standard for mission eligibility that now leaders fear their future missionary force will dwindle, so they must start earlier with scare tactics and indoctrination of young children on the evils of masturbation and sex, even though these minors are scarcely able to understand? This couple who objected were wise to follow their own instincts, and to realize that they should not choose to live by a creed of “follow the brethren, right or wrong,” because often these brethren do not know what the hell they are doing and their well intentioned actions can turn out to be harmful to children.

  • homeless_disqus

    Would love to see Michelle added as an Infant.