Ep 313 – Remarkable Development


Posted October 16th, 2016

Matt and Glenn try (and maybe sorta momentarily succeed, we hope) to sift away all partisanship from conversations from this past crazy week and focus on the one unifying message that everyone should agree on.  Lewd and derogatory male attitudes towards women can no longer be considered acceptable in our world.  It’s about much more than politics now.  It’s about our mothers, and daughters, and wives, and friends.  It’s about improving our shared social morality.  Positive words can have a measurable impact on the physical world.  That isn’t just magical thinking.  We’re hoping the words of this episode will add our small piece to this current critical mass to make this moment of awareness one that will transform our world and not be soon forgotten.  And Matt shares a clip from the Simpsons.



  • Dad with 2 daughters

    I’m getting weary of middle class liberals going apoplectic over locker room talk as if it were our nation’s #1 crisis. Look, of course I want women treated with respect, but we need to look at the big picture this election; political correctness isn’t going to secure our natural rights to life, liberty, and property.

    I’d rather have an unabashed misogynist in the White House who I know will keep this country (including its 157 million women) safe from terrorists and foreign aggression.

    That’s a much better alternative than having it occupied by one of Washington’s most blatantly corrupt insiders whose solution to these dangers is open borders/amnesty and giving millions to Iran so they can make nukes and fund global terrorism.

    • Matt

      This is brilliant! Your sardonic humor is the perfect compliment to this episode. Awesome.

    • Glenn

      I totally agree with you Dad with 2 daughters. You definitely are getting weary of hearing this kind of talk. It annoys you. And you see it as a smoke screen detracting from the sins of Hilary.

      I don’t share your confidence that Trump will keep this country safe, let alone all if the millions of women. Why are you so certain he is up to the task?

      • Jeff Morris

        Feminism rant time.

        Why do you think millions of women “need to be kept safe”?

        I’m going to preface this by saying that I 100% believe that man and women are, and should be treated in every respect, equal.

        Having said that, most modern feminists imo espouse a position that is fundamentally (and this includes you guys) very misogynistic. Let me explain.

        Let me give an example – let’s talk about the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition, Porn in general, and the sometimes overly sexualized representation of women in video games and print media. My guess is that you guys, based on earlier episodes and statements, would find these things to be sexist – misogynistic even. However, I would counter that you are actually representing the sexist side in this scenario. If we’re going to be real, essentially what you are saying is that those women shouldn’t be allowed to decide what they can and cannot do with their bodies. That you know better than they do what’s best for them. These women are not ‘oppressed’ – they opt in to what they do, as adults, and usually get paid a very large sum of money.

        Let me give another example – the sexist comments of a person like Donald Trump. If we changed the context of the comments to be referencing a man instead of a woman, would you be similarly outraged? I’m assuming not. Now, I’m not being MRA here and trying to say that men experience sexism. Quite the opposite actually. I’m saying that in order to not be a misogynist, you need to have the same attitude with regards to comments about women that you do to comments about men. As in, you have to not care. As crazy as that sounds, if you think that women need protecting from what some crazy guy said on TV, but you don’t think that you need that same form of protection, you are sexist.

        Both of those example have to do with how you fundamentally view women. Do you see them as responsible adults? Or do you see them as weak, inferior, and in need of your (and society’s) protection? Chivalry and actual equality cannot co-exist. Either women are a class apart, deserving of respect, deference and protection, or they’re responsible adults, equal to men on every front. You have to pick one.

        That’s why the ‘sexual objectification’ argument is so silly. Are you going to make it illegal for women to walk around in bikinis? Are you going to make it illegal for men to look at or approach women? Maybe we should legislate that all women wear burkas? In all seriousness, has the sexualization of men (yes, it happens all the time) ever bothered you personally? Did you find it demeaning? Of course you didn’t. Why? Because you’re an adult, and you don’t care what some other guy does with his body, or how silly the physical proportions of a cartoon man are.

        Why do you feel that it’s fundamentally different for women? Why do you feel that they’re so weak as to need your protection? Maybe instead of constantly telling women that they’re victims, we should be teaching them how to rise above criticism, jokes and crude comments, and to be comfortable with who they are, regardless of what others may think of them. If you don’t feel that men need that kind of protection, but women do – it’s hard for me to imagine how that isn’t sexist.

        The biggest problem with modern feminism, and the main reason why so few people identify with it (a recent study showed that while over 90% of people agree that women and men should be equal, less than 15% identify as feminist) is that anyone with a bone to pick can piggy back on the feminist label, and arguing that they don’t represent ‘true feminism’ is invariably a No True Scotsman. That includes the fat acceptance movement and, unfortunately, third wave feminism. Too many ideologies exist under the same umbrella, and there’s no official platform to make sense of it all.

        Getting back on track, that CNN interview with the lady named Vicki? She was more grounded than most feminists I’ve ever heard. She basically said, “Yeah, the guy said some offensive stuff a while back, but I don’t care. It doesn’t bother me because I’m my own woman. I’m more concerned with the substance of his campaign” And you know what? That’s exactly what I would have said (even though I don’t agree with Trump’s campaign lol). I don’t give a crap if a woman says something offensive about men. I have mad respect for Vicki – She is a shining example of what feminism SHOULD look like.

        Go Vicki.


        • Jonathan Stiles

          “Either women are a class apart, deserving of respect, deference and protection, or they’re responsible adults, equal to men on every front. You have to pick one.”

          What if we consider women to be equal, but also recognize that they are disproportionately targeted and marginalized? Addressing rape culture has nothing to do with believing that women are less or more than men. If we lived in a society where there was a rape culture towards men then it would be just as necessary to address that, but we don’t have that.

          Your argument sounds very similar to the argument for “color blindness”. If we live in a society that has systems in place that oppress certain groups of people then we cannot ignore the disparities or else we are allowing the oppression to continue. That is not the same as being sexist or racist. It is actually sexist and racist to think that we can ignore disparities among groups.

          • Jeff Morris

            “Rape Culture” doesn’t exist. However, I do agree that rape is terrible and lamentingly far more common than it should be.

            It is the same as the color blindness argument. I can acknowledge that women and minorities are more often targeted/marginalized while also holding them to the same standards as everyone else. In fact, I think lowering the bar for them is an insult. A bit like expecting women to play softball instead of baseball.

            I’m not ignoring disparities among groups. I’m saying that the way many people advocate addressing those disparities is wrong. To use a classic example, let’s talk about affirmative action. Did you know that it actively discriminates against those of asian descent, regardless of their economic background or country of origin? The trouble with policies aimed addressing one group is that they always end up alienating a different group.

          • Glenn

            Jeff, we are clearly operating from a very different place in this discussion. It is not sexist for a man to begin to become painfully aware of the everyday gender inequality that is such a pervasive part of our culture. That’s where I am. The inappropriate stuff with Trump is easy to see. The everyday things I do (and do not do) that contribute to the way my wife and daughters and female friends and colleagues view themselves and the way they are encouraged or discouraged to be respected and admired members of our world – and respected and admired for more than what you would respect and admire in a SI Swimsuit addition — that is the soup we are swimming in that I am talkikg about here. We do not have a level playing field. White Upper-middle class Heterosexual Male Privilege (WHUMP) is a real thing (even if I just playfully accronymized it right now) Rape Culture (RC) is also a real thing. Ignorance (I) is even more a very real thing. Personally, I have been I (ignorant) of my own WHUMP and unintentionally contributions to RC for far too long. That is what this conversation with Matt was about for me. And I’m still taking awkward stumbling Infant baby steps in this thing. But I am aware of it now. I believe it is real. I have to do whatever I can to help fix it now — even if it is just within my very small circle of influence.

    • Grant Heath

      Do you know how many Americans have been killed by terrorists in the last decade? 24. As for foreign aggression, it has been a very long time since America has needed to worry about an invading army. How often do unhealthy attitudes about women contribute to discrimination, domestic violence, and sexual violence?

      Our country’s attitudes towards women are a major problem. They concern me a lot more than terrorism and foreign aggression.

      I’m not saying we should ignore the fact that there are countries and organizations that want to harm America. But, one of the candidates was a reality tv host. The other was Secretary of State and has actual real world experience with global politics.

      Also. If he wins or not, I hope Trump stays the hell away from your daughters.

      • Bob Smith

        Only 24 Americans have been killed by terrorists in the last decade. I think the more important thing to look at is the hundreds of thousands of people (not Americans) that have been killed directly or indirectly because the United States keeps starting wars. Everywhere we go in the Middle East we leave death, destruction, and chaos. Dad with 2 daughters, our foreign policy should be considered. We should consider the fact that Hillary Clinton has been involved in starting some of these wars and continuing others. She receives campaign funds from people that want us to be at war. I think that on a moral standing we, as Americans need to question what we are doing militarily. Do I know that Trump will do any better? No. But I haven’t seen him start any wars for questionable reasons. He does have that going for him. Piers Morgan, in his 20 reasons to dread a Hillary presidency said this for #4, “She’s a dangerous war-mongerer. The Iraq War was an unmitigated fiasco that led to turmoil throughout the Middle East and spurred the rise of ISIS. It was the biggest foreign policy disaster since Vietnam and Hillary voted for it. She was also heavily responsible for the dismal Libya invasion. When people say they don’t trust Trump with his finger on the nuclear trigger, I suggest Hillary the Hawk is far more likely to press it.” To me, this is definitely in the top few things we should consider going into the election.

    • Swagavad Gita

      You clearly know very little about the nuances of foreign policy. I feel really sorry for you. As for your daughters and sons, I hope they’re not being raised in a rape culture in their very house. I sincerely mean that.

    • Randy_Snyder

      I’m dad with three sons, and why does that matter? You think terrorism is our greatest threat AND you think Trump is competent enough to execute anything productive? Seems like Breitbart is more of your bag than IoT.

  • albertinamel

    I really liked this episode. It is so important to sincerely try to understand where the opposite point of view is coming from, even if you disagree with it 100%. (Don’t we always say so when asking TBMs to at least listen to our valid reasons for no longer believing the Church’s truth claims? They don’t have to agree, but we want them to give some attempt to understand where we’re coming from.) Coincidentally, just after listening to the podcast I read this article in Cracked, written by someone who grew up in a very rural town, trying to explain the Trump phenomenon. I think you and your listeners might really appreciate it. I think it’s pretty insightful, especially for those of us who have never lived in rural America. http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reasons-trumps-rise-that-no-one-talks-about/

  • The part where Glenn reads from “The Art of the Deal” is very enlightening. This guy (Trump) knows exactly what he is doing. I almost don’t want to give him credit for being that smart. If he is that smart, where does the petulant grade-school-level behavior come from? Is he schizophrenic on top of all of the rest of his psychological maladies?

    You can see how he keeps his base in place by knowing what they want to hear and feeding it to them over and over and over again. He can whip them into a frenzy any time he wants. But that’s probably also why he can’t expand his base at all. If he changes the anesthetic cocktail that keeps his base in the fever dream that they’re in in order to bring some other group under his spell by divining what they want to hear and feeding it back to them, he risks his base waking up and seeing him for what he is.

    I still think the Clintons are paying him to stay in the race. If I had Bernie to vote for, I’d have no interest in Hilary Clinton whatsoever. It takes an erratic psychopath like Trump to make Hilary look good, but he’s doing it.

  • Ryan Gregson

    I now have high hopes for Statler & Waldorf appearances in the upcoming conference ep.

  • Jay

    “Donald Trump is a rapist. I’m convinced of this…Make no mistake, what he described his rape.”

    Is Trump an arrogant, misogynistic asshole? Yes. Is he a rapist? The FBI tells me that rape is “Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.” It’s a huge statement to say that Trump is a rapist. Has he sexually harassed women? The evidence seems to support it. Has Trump raped anybody? I haven’t seen the evidence for it.

    I would have thought that Matt would be more precise when talking about rape. Unlike Matt I am not convinced that Trump is a rapist.

    • Glenn

      And unlike Matt, you are primarily informed by something you googled in about 5 minutes. Rape and Rape Culture — what it does to violently innocent victims in our world — it is about much more than anatomic penetration.

      • Jay

        Calling somebody a rapist carries a very specific meaning when coming from a sex crimes prosecutor. If a psychiatrist got on the news and said Trump was psychotic it would carry very different weight then if your random Joe off the street said that Trump was psychotic. Calling Trump a rapist but hiding behind a definition of rapist that avoids actual rape is a prime example of bombastic dialogue that is ruining political discourse.

        Don’t like President Obama’s fiscal policy? Can’t just say we think he spends too much, nope, we’ve got to call him a socialist. Think Trump mistreats women? Gotta raise it to 11 and label him a rapist.

        I guess I’ll go f**k myself.

        • Glenn

          As long as it’s consensual. 😉

          But in all seriousness Jay, I totally get where you are coming from. It is a bold and bombastic claim Matt is making. It absolutely demands and requires the kind of rigorous challenge you are giving it. Don’t mistake what I have been saying to you as dismissiveness. You are absolutely right to challenge this and I applaud you for that. Trump has actually been accused of rape – the penetration kind. More than once. And a judge has set Dec 16 as a date to hear from one if those accusers. So this isn’t being made upmout of whole cloth. Trump’s words and actions seem to indicate that where there is smoke there is fire. Matt — with his experience as both a prosecutor and defender in these kinds of cases –knows how to read these particular smoke signals as well as anyone in this country. It’s a bold brazen claim Matt is making. But it is not a baseless one. And should absolutely trigger our inner skeptics and encourage us to learn as much about this issue as we possibly can.

          • Jay

            Thanks for the reply. I wasn’t aware of the more serious allegations–I was under the impression his words were his biggest offense.

            Believe me, I’m no fan of Trump and don’t consider myself a Trump apologist.

          • Matt

            Hi Jay,

            I can see you have a difficulty with the term rape. That is understandable.

            You claim I should be more precise. I chose my words very carefully and was very precise.

            You are mistaken in assuming rape is a legal term. It isn’t a legal term in my world.

            If I used terms like sexual assault then your criticism would be more valid.

            Words certainly mean something. my words mean something and trump’s words mean something.

            Trump’s words mean he’s a rapist.

            His words are not his biggest offense, but they are strong evidence that demonstrate his offenses.