Offended

Smackdown

Posted January 8th, 2017

Don’t you miss Sunday School?  Don’t you miss frantically preparing your gospel doctrine lesson during sacrament meeting? Don’t you miss showing off your knowledge in class by citing scripture and verse or showing off your testimony with a well-rehearsed and choked-up personal anecdote?  Well grab your quad, your cardigan, and your clip on tie because it’s time to study D&C lesson 24 with Glenn, Randy and Heather smackdown style.

Glenn

Heather

Randy

  • Mensch

    Great discussion. Heather, I thought it appropriate that this episode, and particularly your comment about how the church answers the dissonance question with appeal to authority / the Prophet knows, was released on the same day as Russel M. Nelson’s young adult fireside, in which he pronounces: “While the world may look to the considerable leadership abilities of men and women such as Napoleon, Joan of Arc, George Washington, Mahatma Gandhi, Mother Teresa and others, I believe that the finest leaders to have walked the Earth are the prophets of God.” And, “Existentialists can expound; relativists can rationalize with their constricted views of reality — that truth is only a subjective experience. But God’s laws are laws. God’s truth is really true. What God says is right is right. And what he says is wrong is wrong. Oh, and I speak for God.”

    Okay, I added that last sentence. But that is clearly the message. Reminds me of Bednar’s contemptible remark in his “no homosexuals members of the church” rant, in justifying the church’s homophobic stance by declaring, “Joseph Smith didn’t create the plan. Thomas Monson didn’t create the plan. God the Eternal Father created the plan.”

    No, David, only bigoted, fallible men could come up with up with such a plan. God had nothing to do with it.

    http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/4796695-155/study-mormon-prophets-and-live-by

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865670713/President-Russell-M-Nelson-urges-young-adults-to-be-true-disciple-of-Jesus-Christ.html

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ4_wTGv8Ao

  • I still have a hard time with this concept of “offense” being the fault or deficiency of the offended. My internal reaction every time I hear that is, “Well, if you guys weren’t so damned offensive, I would be less offended. Quit offending me.” Rather than condemning the offended, the so-called Church should be teaching its leaders and members to be less offensive. After a while, they could put up billboards along the highway, “We’re the Mormons! Now 43% less offensive! Check us out!”

    An aside about Heavenly Mother: There’s a Belgian Movie (French with subtitles, lest I be accused of deception rivaling that of Satan himself) called The Brand New Testament. It deals with God’s wife and daughter and his estranged son, JC. It’s pretty irreverent, but totally delightful. It’s also kind of touches on the “are we living in a simulation?” topic, but not seriously. It’s a comedy along the lines of The 100 Year-Old Man Who Climbed Out of the Window and Disappeared (mostly Swedish with English subtitles where the dialog isn’t already in English).

  • Randy’s right. The milk strippings story doesn’t show up till Utah as far as sources show. The first time I can find it is in the 1860s in the JoD or something like it and it’s George A. Smith who takes Marsh to task for being weak and listening to his evil wife about the milk strippings inequity. After that the stoty seems to move forward unquestioned despite Marsh’s (and Orson Hyde’s) clear statement from October 1838 of why he (they) left.

    George A. Smith is a person IMO who had by this time had shown a propensity for massaging stories to fit a pro-LDS narrative. In the run up to Johnson’s army/MMM he had shown himself to be one who could stretch the facts to get the Saints to think and feel what he wanted.

    And as Randy mentioned BY humiliates Marsh publicly when returns to Utah and Mormonism years later which is perhaps where Marsh as a pathetic cautionary tale is cemented in Mormonism— despite the fact that there is no contemporaneous evidence of the milk strippings story.

  • Ophanim

    John hamer spoke a few times about visiting an LDS church sacrament meeting and seeing K Kelley’s “peak patriarchy” everywhere and so ingrained it would have to be entirely reconstructed to repair. For me I felt like this happened when the “scales fell from [my] eyes” when I read the “mormon priestess” essay by Elisothel – as if my heart strings connecting me to even desiring to live with these particular gods in an eternal life were cut. The endowment presentation is now complete torture – so I’ve picked up evolutionary biology imagined goddesses creating, evolutionary lucy, how photosynthesis works, and just reinvent in my head what the endowment could look like if the masonry were entirely thrown out, and it was scrapped and reworked. After all you have billions of dollars of marble and granite buildings to convert into new new ordinance houses, open universities, or research labs? mormon transhumanism is more interesting now more like carol lynn pearson’s “the kingdom of God was within me.” So I feel some akinship to the benevolent forces of the universe that motivated god who was once a man to evolve and become god – but alas gordon hinckley threw this out and he’s who we’re studying this year.

  • David Skidmore

    Surprised to hear my “Smackdowns or GTFO. At least John Larsen knew when to call it quits.” comment. I hope no one was offended.

  • Ron Hill

    Speaking of the Eden allegory, I’m floating a theory that in the story the snake was actually meant to personify Adam’s penis and Eve was beguiled by that …so much so that it started talking to her. And just like any relationship, once they started having kids paradise was lost and the garden defiled. 😛

    The story has always struck me as a warning against having children. Seriously, that’s what fucked it all up.

    • And penises have been talking louder than just about anything else ever since.

  • Boats Boats Boats

    I’m only 32 minutes in, but holy cow, Heather’s comments about the family with the stillborn kid is EXACTLY my experience. The whole concept falls apart once it goes from theory to reality. There’s no way to analyze the doctrine without God looking like a total asshole. It was the beginning of the end for me.

  • Nancy

    The Tscc has shamed anger. A devout Mormon who feels it, especially about an authority (and this church is all about authority) is taught that they are under the influence of Satan. As a believer I was taught that apostates feel anger because they can’t have happiness in their “sins”. As an actual apostate I know it actually comes from a huge sense of betrayal about being deceived. So I want people to be offended and leave because that’s actually healthy! There is no bad reason to leave Mormonism.

  • Barry Donnelly

    I just wanted to say that the argument given at 42:00 minutes in, where a person leaves the church because they still believe its “true” but that even in its truth its not an institution run by a deity worth worshiping is exactly what I concluded when I left initially. I concluded that the church was not an institution was not a vehicle for discovering the truth, if the truth about essential topics like what is necessary for salvation (Polygamy) change at the whims of a still “real” deity every sixty years then the church is just one piece of a cosmic chessboard that performs some function in the unfolding history of the Earth than institution where people can learn the truth. That basically disolved any distinction between the LDS church and any other religion for being “the true church”, which helped me take step back from the church and then I got into the problematic CES Letter type issues.