Kolob Shmolob

Panel Discussion

Posted March 16th, 2014

Matt, Tom, Bob, Randy, and Glenn discuss the latest essay on LDS.org: Becoming Like God

The King Follett discourse is also discussed — which is, of course, the source for the name of our podcast, “Infants on Thrones.” If anyone wants to listen to a dramatized version of King Follett, there is one on youtube that sounds eerily familiar and infantile. King Follett YouTube.

  • Seb

    Absolutely spiffing episode!
    Glenn, your dad’s theories sound very heavily inspired by the theo-cosmology of Out Of The Silent Planet (the C.S.Lewis sci-fi classic, not the Iron Maiden track) in which, because Satan is the small-g god of this world, Earth is cut off from the wider planetary community (hence the titular Silent Planet).

  • JT

    May I share a few thoughts? Yes? Thank you very much.

    1. Speculative theologizing is very much like masturbating, except (most) people don’t have a problem flushing what the latter “creatively comes up with” down the toilet.

    2. Jesus was unique. One dad, two moms – with one of ‘em his spirit sister – which also means she was his dad’s spirit dau … Eewww!

    3. Caricature? Would you like to come up to my ward building so I can show you our faith-promoting artwork?

    4. The 21st century great debate: Joseph Smith vs. Gordon B. Hinckley

    Joseph Smith: “God himself was once as we are now … that is the great secret … we have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea … It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God … He was once a man like us.

    Gordon B. Hinkley: “I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it … I understand the philosophical background behind it, but I don’t know a lot about it, and I don’t think others know a lot about it.”

    Joseph Smith: “First principle Gordo, F – I – R – S – T!

    Gordon B. Hinckley: Well, I’m the prophet now.

    Joseph Smith: Not for long you twerp, and I’m waiting for you.

    5. Kolob spelled backwards is Bolok. That’s the Hebrew word for “the light that shines upon the highest throne of the almighty god that was once a man, but now is an almighty god.” Joseph could not have possibly known that because he didn’t take Hebrew classes until after he had the Kolob revelation.

    • Randy_Snyder

      Once again, great comment JT. And did you notice I stole your idea about Jesus being off to the side when we pray? Hope you didn’t mind.

      • Randy_Snyder

        Nevermind. Glenn edited it out in the final version.

        • JT

          Randy,

          No problem either way. But good you brought it up – made me think a bit more about it.

          Consider how Mormons prominently display so many pictures of Jesus, and yet it’s taboo to imagine your way into a direct relationship with him. But at the same time there are no pictures of God the Father (Elohim) who you are suppose to be talking to (or at) a few times a day.

          But wait, there is that twin-ish rendering of Elohim in the painting of Joseph’s 3rd version of his 1st vision. Apparently, that was the only time Elohim showed up on earth (more on this in a moment). And, even then, all he could do was tell Joseph to listen to Jesus. That seems totally unnecessary – it’s not like Joseph would otherwise have ignored a floating and glowing Jesus.

          It’s actually surprising that Elohim even bothered showing up for that. After all, he sent Jesus down (with Michael) to create the earth, so he didn’t bother getting directly involved in that important project. And he was pretty much “hands off” throughout human history – Jesus was the Old testament Jehovah. Did Elohim even bother with Adam and Eve?

          Makes you you wonder if he was even listening when Jesus cried out, “why have you forsaken me?” (An interesting question considering that Jesus had power over death anyway.) And then he’s been passing the buck to the Holy Ghost when it comes to getting back to people. Maybe the HG screens his calls – maybe all of them.

          On top of this, as someone mentioned in the podcast, there’s the matter of Elohim locking Heavenly Mother up in the basement – which prevents her from doing anything genuinely nurturing for her kids.

          Gee Whiz, that heavenly family has issues! What we have here is a physically and emotionally unavailable father and abusive husband – a mother who, for all we know. might take perverse pleasure in that relationship (Consider what she had to do to get there) – and an uber-obedient self-sacrificing son who “takes upon himself” all dirty work, answering with a dutiful “It shall be done Elohim” and “We will report back,” while also being kept away from his siblings.

          Yikes! Good thing they are all make-believe – or that most Mormons don’t let themselves follow such a line of inference from their meager points of theology and practice.

  • XL

    You should have Randy Bott on the show. He might clear up some of this confusion on the course of your eternal progression. In his class he used to field all sorts of question in class or by email, whether it was eternal marriage or the second anointing (*cough* or blacks and the priesthood). Not always the most faith promoting answers, but at least they were interesting…

    • Abe

      Please get Randy B. on Infants!

  • Abe

    Beautiful discussion of deep doctrine. I love how quickly it all falls apart no matter the topic.

  • Silver

    I love these asinine discussions of deep doctrine. Your discussion perfectly illustrates how it all falls apart when you take the logic outside the TBM box. My personal favorite is that Jesus was the savior for all the other worlds, and that this is the only world wicked enough to kill him. I can’t believe that I actually believed this shit.

  • simateoako

    @24:15 I just spit out my coffee.

    • Glenn

      Really? Patriarchry? You’re easy. 😉

      • simateoako

        It was more the fawning over Heavenly Mother’s celestial vagina.

        • Glenn

          Ahhhh…. The funniest part of that to me was the way the rest of us quickly moved on to another subject. Bob moved us all along pretty quickly.

          • Kevin

            Everyone knew that a line had been crossed… haha I was dying!

        • Abe

          I’m not sure CK sex is so great considering our infinite and perfect knowledge of everything.

          http://doubtyourdoubts.blogspot.com/2013/11/the-celestial-kingdom.html

          • Randy_Snyder

            Enjoyed reading your blog post Abraham. Continue to doubt doubting your doubts.

  • Sail_on

    Hey, can’t remember which one of you brought it up, but I too remember being taught that we would have to be strong enough in our faith that we too could endure as much suffering as Jesus did. Heavy stuff for a primary aged kid. At least you didn’t get hit with until Seminary! LOL
    .
    Also brings to mind the horribly graphic descriptions, usually during Easter time talks, of how crucifixion worked. Shudder. Who thinks this is appropriate for anyone, let alone children??

    • Tom Perry

      WHEW! I’m so glad you heard that same story, I was beginning to think I was the one who was crazy.

  • 3GrandKeys

    I’ll cut you guys in on 20% of my most righteous planets if you get some Afterglow songs into the mix at some point.

    • Randy_Snyder

      I’ll make it a point to try and accomplish this. But I want the planets with the best drugs. Not the most righteous. 😉

  • Sail_on

    LOL, thanks to whoever listed “covered wagon” as one of the tags on this podcast. That is going to come in handy later when I’m trying to remember which podcast(s?) it was mentioned in. 😉

  • Ryan

    The brother with the bad Socratic method skills was hilarious

  • RonH

    Nice job guys illustrating how most deep reasoning usually ends up cornered in ludicrous paradox. Funny stuff