Ep 267 – Church Museum


Posted March 13th, 2016

Sage and Tom recently took a tour in the recently remodeled Church History Museum in downtown Salt Lake City and recorded and commented about their experience.

LDS-Church-History-Museum  church-history-museum-11 firstvisiont2 museum2 seerstone


  • Timothy Loveridge

    Hey guys, long time listener, I have to say that I am disappointed with you guys ;), how did you guys not know that the brother of Jared had the seer stones, that is one of the larger plot holes in the book of Mormon, somehow the “Interpreters” make it to king Mosiah before anybody even knows about the Jaredite people, Mosiah 8:13

    • sageturk

      Tim – i’m disappointed in myself as well, missing such a major plot hole all this time. I actually love how clunky it is – just throwing in 2 extra stones to the brother of Jared story. The (not so) surprising thing to me is how the church is trying to confuse the Joseph Smith seer stones and the Urim and Thummim. If you didn’t know any different and all you had was the museum you’d think the seer stones and the UT were the same thing. Although, concerning the plot hole, are we sure King Mosiah didn’t find them in a well? 😉

    • To be fair, there’s so much bullshit to keep track of… where do you start?

  • Ryan Gregson

    This was fun, I kind of want to visit now. Maybe I’ll listen to the podcast while I visit the museum like an IoT guided tour.

  • Thomas Moore

    I would totally nerd out on this. I have said that I would love to tour Nauvoo with John Hamer some time. It would be great if “Hamilton” can become a Broadway Tony winning play…Why can’t someone put together “Reed Smoot Hearings–The Musical???” or a instead of “12 Angry Men” the “Mountain Meadow Massacre Trials” or “The Temple Lot Hearings”. I just wish I could of just gone through with a few others to see how much was added and left out in the history. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C144eMF4S50

    • sageturk

      Thomas – I am so in love with Hamilton it’s not even funny. Did you know that the Book of Mormon musical originally started as a broadway composer wanting to do a serious full on Broadway musical of Joseph Smith before running the idea by Matt and Trey? I love me some BoM, but honestly i shed a tear at what could have been…

      • Thomas Moore

        I wish LDS inc would explain such things as “The Reformation” under Brigham Young. The huge financial deficits that Henry D. Moyle caused. The removal of Alvin R. Dyer as apostle, moving him down to the Seventies. The “United Order ” which was lived by many LDS settlements, etc…

  • BLM

    I’m bummed to hear that the seer stones aren’t actually on display. I’m wondering what PR and/or security issues were at play in deciding to display photos instead.

    • They should have had white top hats attached to the wall with an armored cables (like pay phone receivers used to have) with seer stones glued in the bottom so that visitors could stick their face in the hat and see what Joe saw and get a real feel for the translation process.

      • BLM

        I’m guessing they didn’t want people pressing their faces against the glass and shielding the sides of their eyes to see if the stones glowed.

  • Ep

    I loved the content, but my god the background music, painful…. I had to stop listening, please god no more

    • sageturk

      If endless loops of ‘lead kindly light’ on piano doesn’t sexually arouse you anymore EP, then you have truly lost the spirit and I feel sorry for you.

      • EP

        I will repent…

  • This was GREAT guys. Thanks Sage and Tom. But you guys didn’t talk about the most important part. How was the chocolate you got for filling out the survey?

    Also…I was yelling in my car when you two started to talk about the Jaredite stones. I was like “THOSE ARE THE Urim & Thumim!!!!” I remember always being told about that, that JS had the same ones from Brother of Jared.

  • Larry

    “Vilate–vi-LATE.” Come on, guys, you’ve never heard her name pronounced?

  • Larry

    “Murder weapon?” I don’t think you can call it that. I really think it was justified self defense. By the way, these are not new additions (I know you didn’t claim that). They have been on display in the museum for years.

    • Z

      Even if justified, it’s definitely not like a lamb to the slaughter. It really invalidates the argument that the church must be true because of Smith’s willingness to die.

      • You’re right. It’s not like Jesus or Joan of Arc. Joseph Smith died in a gun fight, like the one at the OK Corral. I don’t think that, by itself, particularly diminishes the Church. Lord knows there are enough other things that do that.

        • Ryan Gregson

          I’d say it’s somewhere in between. They weren’t executed, and even thought they weren’t completely defenseless, it was still more like a mob assassination, right?

          • Well, yeah. They were trapped and outnumbered and such, but that’s what happens when you don’t plan your gunfights better.

      • Larry

        He was definitely trying NOT to die: fired shots down the stairwell, went to the window, gave the masonic distress signal. Before that, toying with escaping west. It’s hard to blame him, but not the version of events we usually hear today.

    • Dan

      I actually really liked finding out that Joseph Smith went to death kicking and clawing instead of that bullshit “lamb to the slaughter/calm as a summer day” story I had been told. As a combat vet I carried a lot of guilt for a lot of things I either did or didn’t do. And I was leaving belief and learned this little tidbit about JS it was just another example of the reality that exists behind the myth. Not a superman, not a righteous man by so many standards, and I’m not sure I can explain it very well now but it made me feel a lot better about myself when I realized that the night before he is cut down by gunfire he sits with his friends, drinks wine, smokes and sings. Wanting a bit of comradarie with your friends and brothers before you might die is universal human nature. Like so many of the myths I learned as a member (don’t get me started on BofM warfare again) none of the “facts” I learned about Brother Joseph’s life ever rang true to me. This is an example I can point to when I speak with my still believing friends and family to highlight that real history is certainly more interesting than the white washed, vanilla pap taught in Sunday school.

  • Larry

    Okay, good overall. I would have given them at least a 3 for transparency. Please stop saying “I” when you mean “me.”

  • It would be kinda sorta cool if the Church would make the various videos and/or audio from the museum available on YouTube or maybe on their own website for those too feeble to make the Hajj to SLC. They could (and definitely should) make a parallel web-seum for folks all over the world to “visit.” It would make the Church look hip and happenin’ like.

    The very last thing I would want to do is incite illicit activities, but . . . failing a full-scale fully sanctioned web-seum, if the guy who videoed the entire endowment ceremony were to video the film from the First Vision Theatre and put it on the interwebs where I might stumble across it, I might fail to avert my eyes. I’m just sayin’ . . .

  • J. Cluster

    Hey, they never put cool ass screens like that in the temple!

  • The HEBER JAYBEES! I love it! 😂


  • J. Cluster

    Joseph’s preparation? That’s the spin they’re putting on that? How is divining the entire Book of Mormon with a rock considered preparation? Practice for the Book of Abraham maybe? Cmon! The bullshit is just too deep.

  • RunningOnEmpty

    I actually worked at the museum years ago, and since I live so far away am not able to visit. This was a treat to listen to, thanks for the virtual walk through.

    I’m not sure how they present it, but the watch that John Taylor wore on that day in carthage has been shown to not have been damaged by a bullet, but was likely damaged when he fell against the window sill. There was an in-depth study done on the damage caused, and it was determined that it couldn’t have been a bullet. I know that Glenn Leonard’s (former director of the museum) book on Nauvoo has a small paragraph about it. I’m sure they don’t say that in the display, but I know that most of the historians there know that it wasn’t the watch that saved his life.

    Thanks guys!

  • Brandon Andreason Hoke

    So im just wandering if you guys believe there is a true church out there and where it might be? Or is it just in your heart? Jesus?