Posted May 14th, 2017
Jake, Heather, Randy and Scott smack around a DN article saying TTFN to the LDS VS program of the BSA. Let’s hope you all got your AMBs!! (Acronym Merit Badges)
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Fourteen US Presidents and 8 LDS Church presidents have been awarded the Silver Buffalo. Plus the Oakridge Boys and some Marriotts and over 700 other people. Kind of makes it seem less amazing.
Maybe if they’d given Thomas Monson the Unobtainium Unicorn, the LDS Church wouldn’t be backing out.
I know this is an extraordinarily difficult concept for any of you to grasp, but maybe – just maybe – the leaders of the Church act on principle, rather than self-interest.
And maybe the principles acted upon with perfectly well-intentioned integrity by those leaders are occasionally built upon faulty premises to which they are well-intentionally ignorant and unaware for any number of possible reasons. And maybe those principles were codified in the first place to promote individual or group self-interests.
I’m glad you’re having fun here, Kiwi. Stick around as long as you want. And keep loving up that charcoal of yours while decrying the evils of propane gas. There is only one way to grill a steak after all.
“And maybe those principles were codified in the first place to promote individual or group self-interests.”
And maybe they weren’t.
Exactly. Now you’re getting it. 🙂
I have several stories like Randy’s involving my many years with the scouts. One involved a public address announcement saying “will the adult in charge of these boys keep them under control…” All while my wife was struggling with three little kids alone at home. The things we do for God. Glad that is in the past.
Dang it guys, I was trying not to comment…but I was yelling at my computer at around min 35 about no Scout Leaders can be gay. Benji Schwimmer who came out to his Bishop and SP found out that on his membership record there was an asterisk. The Bishop told him that this meant he could never serve in youth leadership or training or teaching positions. So now we have verification, that if a member confessed to SSA (Hamer says, “NO!”) they were to be treated as potential pedophiles.
Sorry that I didn’t push that hard enough. Mean that sincerely.
Thanks Thomas! I was talking to them while listening too! Church policy states that if you are gay (even “non-practicing” gay) that you are forbidden from holding any callings with children.
Actually Thomas, pedophiles go after little children. A man who goes after young teenage boys is called a “chickenhawk.”
Props to Jake for his unnoticed “Coke Slide” comment. The imagery it evokes earns it a mention.
Being of Jack Mormon descent, we attended a huge scout troop that was a catchall for overflow kids who couldn’t or wouldn’t go to an LDS program. Our troop would let you in if you would be twelve before the next school year, so we had mostly 12, 13 and 14 year-olds with a sprinkling of eleven year-olds (mostly other kid’s younger brothers). Some kid named Wesley was sixteen and our only Eagle Scout (at least while I was there) and there was one other sixteen year-old Life Scout who was twice as big as anyone else who served mostly as a bouncer. There was no cultural pressure to achieve Eagle in our troop and so almost nobody did. My experience, in a non-LDS environment, was that when boys started to date and drive and go out for high school sports, their interest in Scouting dropped off drastically. We had a wonderful time, but Scouting, for us, was a junior high school phenomenon. Garage bands were another thing that drew kids away in those days. I moved to Denver when I was fourteen, started a band and spent my high school years as a rock god, forsaking Scouting entirely
The point, if there is one, is that most boys outgrow scouting at about fifteen. As soon as they can drive themselves, they drive themselves elsewhere. A successful “Venture” scouting program would have to actually be a higher quality, more engaging program with more adult and institutional planning and support than regular Scouts. Probably won’t happen.
PS: The Atheist divorced lady (how evil can you get?) at the end of our street had a diaper service come haul away her kids filthy diapers and leave a bundle of freshly laundered ones on the porch, so she had basically a Pampers paradigm goin’ on: put the shitty diaper in the pail, hose the kid off, apply a fresh one and forget about it. Everyone else did the “rinse the diaper in the toilet then machine wash with a half a bottle of Clorox” routine. The Atheist lady also bought coffee and tea from a “service” and spent a lot of money with Avon rather than buying toiletries from Skaggs like everybody else. What kind of example was that for the faithful?
There are valid Criticisms of LDS scouting for older boys; however, the Church’s one size fits all, top down new policy ending local units ability to charter venture crews and varsity teams and ending scouting as a coorelated activity for boys 14+ will have drastic consequences that have not been adaquately articulated.
A distinct challenge with LDS scouting has been the compulsory nature of how the program has been implanted. Unlike non LDS units, LDS Boys are automatically enrolled near regardless of interest. Scout leaders largely serve as church calling rather than a passion or interest in scouting.
Instead of disallowing local units form charting venture/varsity programs, a far better approach would be to have an alternate set of programs a unit could adopt for older boys and allow venture crews and boys/girls who wanted to be in venturing to voluntarily enroll and allow adults who volunteer to support these crews to do so without being called to such a position. The crews could meet on an alternative night of the week or as an option on church activity night. A voluntary program would be much more appealing. Allowing local congregations to pick from a variety of programs to meet their needs and allow rhe youth to design their program would be helpful.
The unintended consequences of withdrawing from BSA for 14+ age youth are as follows:
– no criminal background checks or youth protection policies by BSA would apply so the church will have to create its own or use may be exposed to additional risk of abuse.
– Local adults would have to come up with their own resources to carry out high-adventure programming and would not qualify to use BSA’s vast resources.
– local leaders would not have the requirement to participate in the extensive training that BSA leaders are required to have to run and supervise youth programs. For example the new program suggest that leaders plan a canoe trip. However there is no required swim test safety afloat training buddy system adult life guard or tour permit process built-in to the LDS program.
BSA liability insurance will not be available for use the trips. In addition the extensive requirement of a health physical and having each use medical forms on the trips are also not provided for in the new program .
Young men’s leaders called two positions like this in the future will not have the vast experience gained over appeared of time of working with high-adventure programs with the Boy Scouts nor the support of district and counsel experts who can provide equipment training expertise. So local leaders will be on their own without substantial resources.
– hide venture trips in with scouts often benefit from BSA fundraising and the community is willing to donate to a fundraiser for Boy Scouts to go on a high-adventure trip. The church will probably not allow fundraising to support church activities and the non-LDS public may be much less likely to donate to an expensive Church related trip not associated with the Boy Scouts. This raises another fundamental flaw LDS scouting.namely the churches restrictions on fundraising that make LBS programs typically underfunded and therefore not as exciting. Alternatively if the LDS church removed all restrictions on fundraising except those involved in Boy Scout policies many use trips including those four girls 13+ who could be venture Scouts could be adequately funded from fundraising efforts .The disparity in funding of boys and girls hide venture programs is a direct result of church policy not allowing girls to be venture Scouts and it’s restriction on fundraising and unnecessarily so.
– by withdrawing from scouting for 14-year-olds and up, many of the dedicated scouts in LDS programs both youth and adults will seek to be involved in scouting after age 14 and it will very likely move there scouting experience is out of LDS units into scouting troops and cruise sponsored or chartered by non-LDS organizations. So overtime that was really interested in scouting will not be involved in LDS scouting further draining the resources and interest of those who are in Maine in Cub Scout in and Boy Scout troops to the age of 14.
– in addition one main purpose of Scouting is to develop leadership and to help boys and girls involved in venturing to become leaders to younger youth. If the older youth are not involved in scouting during scheduled church activities. They will not have the opportunity to provide that leadership nor will the younger scouts have the benefit of seeing older scouts with those skills being leaders. Truncating older experience use from scouting is fundamentally against the purposes of Scouting.
– why not registering older scouts as members of the troop venture crew or varsity team LDS use will not have the opportunity to go to high-adventure basis such as Philmont, Summit, Sea Base, and northern tear. Nor will they benefit for many of Stella provided hide venture resources such as climbing programs COPE programs, order of the arrow activities, and advance recognition in scouting such as Powderhorn and other advancement and leadership opportunities .
None of these consequences have to have them for the church to change its programming. The church just needs to allow a voluntary Scouting program for young men and young women 14 to 21 and a volunteer leadership of adults to support that programming which can happen outside of correlated weekly activities. The change that needs to happen is to continue to allow local congregations to decide if they want to charter venture cruise or scout troops or varsity teams for their youth 14 and up and to get out of the restrictive policies dictated by Salt Lake that restrict fundraising/registration and local congregations abilities to be charter organization’s.
The new youth programs proposed for young man bring vast concerns. Without the infrastructure of the Boy Scouts are use will be more likely to be at risk of being abused, having unsafe trips, having limited resources, and the Scouting program in general will be viewed as optional by younger scouts and will be abandoned by Serious scouters.
This is another example of policy issued by the church that is poorly thought out and will ultimately be counterproductive in keeping youth in the church. It suggests to allow use more ability to plan their own programs, however it is taken away the choice from local units on how to run their programs.
Venture Scouting is COE-Ed for youth between 13-20 years of age- You do not need to be an Eagle Scout with a High adventure focused.
Varsity Scouting is less focused on rank advancements and more on sports or high adventure activities. Of Note Varsity Scouting originated in SLC by a high level member of the choice.
Male scouts who are in Varsity/Venture programs can still work towards their eagle rank and/or merit badges, etc.
Of note there are Sea Scouts again 13-20 / co-ed water/boat based program and STEM Scouts a 13-18 year old co-ed science based programs.Also the 11 year scouting program is purely a LDS program.
Also, most international scouting programs are co-ed from cub scout age onward and hence are why they are not sponsored by the church in those areas.
I will agree with the love/hate relationship with both the BSA/Scouters and the LDS program, as well as members and the Scouting program. I was a Eagle Scout in a LDS troop from Baltimore Md. Our troop was 60/40 members/non members, and most of our Scout Masters were solid, minus my last two years when they went through a revolving door. Most of the boys durring my time loved scouting and we participated be cause we loved it. When I served my mission, I had quite a few comps who hated scouting because they were forced by parents/church/etc… Scouting is not perfect… I love Scouting, hate LDS scouting, and before I left the church I already had plans to find a non-LDS unit for my boy to go into.
Off topic, but I think this is a topic ripe for a Brother Jake video: https://bycommonconsent.com/2017/05/22/plans-of-salvation/
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